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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  August 22, 2013 11:00pm-12:00am EDT

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studied. as for now, i'm putting howard dean down as a "maybe." former governor howard dean, gets tonight's last word. thank you very much, howard. >> thank you. >> chris hayes is up next. i'm chris hayes. tonight on "all in," the unfolding battle to protect your right to vote in this country. it's being waged on multiple fronts in multiple states. we've got full coverage after a whole host of developments in a moment with texas representative joaquin castro and the reverend al sharpton. as the outrage over russia's anti-gay laws continue to grow, we're beginning to get a disturbing picture of what life is like there for its lgbt citizens. my guest tonight is russian, openly gay and about to flee the country. plus, stop and frisk and edward snowden, what do they have in common? a whole lot more than you might think. we begin on the front lines of voter suppression, with multiple developments across the
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country, not the least of which is the attorney general of the united states eric holder suing the state of texas, two states suing the federal government back, and a prominent republican lambasting the republican governor of north carolina over that state's brand new voting requirements. today the justice department announced plans to file a new lawsuit against the state of texas over its voter i.d. law and intervene as a party in another case involving texas redistricting. attorney general holder said "he will not allow the prime court's recent decision to be interpreted as open season for states to pursue measures that suppress voting rights. we will keep fighting aggressively to prevent voter disenfranchisement. we're determined to use all available authorities including remaining sections of the voting rights act. this represents the department of latest action to protect voting rights but it will not be our last." a federal court in washington had previously held that texas failed to meet its burden of proving its redistricting plans and voter i.d. law were not
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discriminatory. but that was set aside when the supreme court gutted a key section of the voting rights act leaving texas governor rick perry at liberty to implement the strict photo i.d. law. with today's action, attorney general holder is fighting back under another section of the voting rights act which still stands. meanwhile, states of arizona and kansas are suing the federal government to allow those states to go ahead with their plans to demand proof of citizenship in order to register to vote. they've been stopped from doing so by another supreme court ruling, though in that same ruling the court did say that states could sue the federal government over the issue. which is what they announced they're doing today. georgia and alabama are also affected by that same supreme court ruling, so today alone, voting rights in five states are in direct play because of various lawsuits, and that's not all. today brought an absolutely remarkable moment in a state that has become the frontline of the voting rights battle. north carolina. which has passed the most restrictive voter laws since the recent supreme court decision.
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governor pat mccrory signed the restrictive voting measures into law and important to recall he defended it against left wing extremism. >> let me be direct. many of those from the extreme left who have been criticizing photo i.d. are using scare tactics. they're more interested in divisive politics than ensuring that no one's vote is disenfranchised by fraudulent ballot. >> this morning at a ceo forum in raleigh just seconds after governor mccrory left the stage, a well-known left wing extremist, former secretary of state retired general colin powell, took the stage as keynote speaker and basically let governor mccrory have it. no audio was allowed. here's what he said. "i want to see policies that encourage every american to vote, not make it more difficult to vote. it immediately turns off a voting bloc the republican party needs. these kinds of actions do not build the base. it just turns people away. you an say what you like, but there is no voter fraud.
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how can it be widespread and undetected? what it really says to minority voters is we really are sort of punishing you." joining me, host of "politicsnation," my colleague, reverend al sharpton. a special two-hour edition of his show will air tomorrow, "march on washington: the dream continues." i have to ask you your reaction to the colin powell comments. i can't believe he did that with the governor right there. >> i thought it was a very courageous thing to do for him because of given his audience, and the right thing to do, and i think that colin powell has shown the kind of leadership in this area we need. here is a -- we're talking about, chris, the right to vote. we're talking about people fabricating that there's some pattern of fraud that has to be dealt with here. when there is no pattern of fraud. when we've done the study. the justice department has even done studies.
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it's like 0.003% fraud. so clearly this is set up as colin powell said, to deal with trying to deal with minority voters not being able to vote. this is the same battle just done with a little more nuance and polish than we had to fight to get right to vote for blacks and minorities in the first place. and this is outrageous 50 years after the march on washington. we have to deal with this issue. but deal with it, we will. >> what's striking to me is colin powell said what he did. he said it in the context he said it in. but also how few figures there are in the republican party like colin powell who have said the same thing or are in the position to say the same thing. that, to me, is precisely the problem. >> i think that they're in the position they choose to hide behind their position rather than use their positions to lead. it is, in my opinion, it is totally breathtaking that you don't have responsible leaders in the republican party that
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have said what powell said today before now and should have come out today and said it because, again, we are dealing with a solution looking for problem rather than a problem looking for a solution. this is blatant voter suppression. it is un-american. it should be confronted by the leaders of both parties. >> that's what -- what's remarkable to me, you'll occasionally hear people, if you get into arguments about this, i don't think there are essentially good arguments on the other side supporting these rules. one argument you'll hear, look, we're just talking about a handful of people at the margins, this isn't going to be that big of a deal. if you look at the voting population and folks who don't have i.d. there's not a big overlap. if it's that not big a deal, why are you going through so much effort to push these laws in every single state you have control of the legislature? >> because it is a big deal, and they know it's a big deal. any number of studies show the number of people that would not be able to vote when we look at the lines that we had to go
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through last year just to mobilize the vote, they know it's a big deal. and it's our right to vote. and let me quickly add, you hear a lot of them say, well, why shouldn't people have i.d. to vote? people do have i.d. to vote. what is wrong with the i.d. we've always had? the i.d. when jimmy carter ran and nixon ran and bill clinton ran. now all of a sudden we get to president obama, we all of a sudden need new i.d. when there's no new circumstance, no new evidence of fraud. it is blatant voter suppression. and we've got to deal with it as it is. just a nuanced way of trying to suppress votes. >> that is the reverend al sharpton. you're going to want to stick around tomorrow, see his special. thank you so much. >> thank you, chris. joining me now from san antonio, texas, democratic congressman joaquin castro, and the advancement project, judith brown deannis in washington. congressman, i want to ask you what today's intervention by the d.o.j. on behalf of the
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plaintiffs in the lawsuit over texas' law. what that means for voters in texas and you and the political future of folks like you. >> well, chris, hopefully it means that texans will be able to vote in the way they've been used to voting for many decades now. i was in the texas legislature in 2011 and before that for several years and saw the republican majority not only pass the voter i.d. law but also make it harder to register to vote, to register others to vote, to do mail balloting. so it's been a series of hurdles that they've tried to put in the way to make it harder for texans to vote and these laws disproportionately effect low-income voters and minority voters. they know what they're doing. they're trying to shave off if it's two, three, four, five points. we all know people win a lot of elections in those small margins. that's what they're trying to accomplish. >> judy, the lawsuits are being
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done under section 2 of the voting rights act, if i understand that correctly. if left standing by shelby county decision the court handed down earlier this year. what do you say to folks who say, hey, look, voting rights act still in operation, government could use section 2. they're going to work it out in courts. there's no problem here. >> well, chris, i mean, it's important that the supreme court took an ax to the voting rights act and actually when they got rid of section 4 which really meant section 5, it means we can't prevent discrimination before it happens. it was a really important tool. that's not going to stop us. it's going to be a harder road for us to go through. we're going to bring the litigation. the department of justice. thank goodness attorney general holder is there at that moment. he was able to push their resources from their section 5 preclearance part of their department over to section 2. and clearly they're showing they're aggressively going to protect voters.
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so we're glad that we have a friend at the department of justice. >> congressman, one of your colleagues i saw quoted today, republican colleague of yours who said, who asked the department of justice to stop these lawsuits until congress could come up with a legislative solution, because, of course, the supreme court decision kicked it back to congress to come up with a new framework for determining which jurisdiction should be subjected to preclearance. what do you say to that? >> well, i think it's a cynical answer because republicans know right now that there is such gridlock in congress because of the tea party control of the house of representatives and how much john boehner has to tend to them. so they know that if you send something back to congress, nothing is going to get done. >> judy, i think it's really important for people to understand, i think, in the context of this discussion about voter suppression, that it isn't just african-americans necessarily who are either being targeted or hurt by these rules.
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we are seeing in states like in this case in arizona in which the issue on the -- and kansas, the issue on the table is whether you are a legal immigrant or not. whether you're a legal citizen. what effects do those kinds of laws have? what do we know about effects of those kinds of laws? and what does today's lawsuits by those two states mean? >> right. clearly what we know is that the gop in passing these laws and in trying to make the moves that they are trying to do in arizona and in kansas is really also about latino voters. i mean, they're going after everybody. anybody who they think is not voting for them in record numbers like they voted for president obama in 2008 and 2012, every, all of those people including young voters like in north carolina, going after college students, the gop is after you. they wan to silence people that didn't vote for them in the past. and so what we know is that, you knows, this fight is -- it's like, you know, it's a battle
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among these states. who can be the best at voter suppression? it's kind of like the, you know, battle of the barbecues. texas versus north carolina. now we have arizona and kansas entering into it. all about trying to rip off our democracy and silence people at a time when people are clearly at unrest, that they are upset about the way this country is moving, and instead of getting people on issues, the gop has decided to manipulate the way that we vote. >> congressman, do you hear -- you're in august recess. you're back in your district at the moment. do you hear people talk about this issue? is this something that is a concern of constituents of yours? are you hearing it when you do constituent events? >> certainly. people are absolutely concerned and very confused about whether they're going to need a photo i.d., allowed to vote in the same way they have before. many of these folks are senior citizens. 70, 75 years old.
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and so there's a lot of confusion and a lot of concern out there, and i'm glad that the justice department is filing suit. it's sad really that it's come to this in texas, but the republican state leadership has really done this to themselves, and i'm hopeful that the d.o.j. will be successful in this effort. >> congressman joaquin castro and judith browne dianis. how dangerous it is to be openly gay or transgendered in russia right now. my next guest is worried the government may come and take her kids. she will be with me here in studio when we return. i am today by luck. i put in the hours and built a strong reputation in the industry. i set goals and worked hard to meet them. i've made my success happen. so when it comes to my investments, i'm supposed to just hand it over to a broker and back away? that's not gonna happen. avo: when you work with a schwab financial consultant,
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where is the white liberal outrage on stop and frisk? that's the question dr. james peterson is asking in his new piece for the grio. i'm going to try to give him an answer later in the show. if you can talk to just one person about what it's like to be openly gay in the increasingly anti-gay country of russia, it's author masha gessen. i get to interview her right
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[ speaking foreign language ] what you just saw was video of a transgender woman in russia being beaten, harassed and humiliated. yet another disturbing snapshot
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of lgbt life in that country, the community faces several harsh and expansively written anti-gay laws including one that bans so-called gay propaganda. with the winter olympics in sochi, russia, months away, pressure from the global community is building by the day. today, russia responded to an international olympic committee request for clarification on how the law would affect athletes and visitors. russia's deputy prime minister says the country will comply with the olympic charter's anti-discrimination provision because, and get this, its laws do not violate it. dmitry kozak writing "the russian federation guarantees fulfillment of obligations before the international olympic committee in its entirety." defended the ban on so-called propaganda, a law broadly written it allows authorities to arrest and detain anyone so much as wearing a rainbow flag pin. arguing law is not discriminatory because it applies to everyone. these legislations apply equally
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to all persons, irrespective of their race, religion, gender or sexual orientation and cannot be regarded as discrimination based on sexual orientation." the letter did not address what would happen to olympic athletes or fans or guests or visitors if they make statements or gestures that could be considered propaganda. yet the ioc says it is satisfied with russia's response calling kozak's letter strong. meanwhile, the response from the international community in a variety of sectors is escalating as every day russia edges toward pariah status over these laws. actor wentworth miller, star of the show "prison break" is making headlines after he turned down an invite to an upcoming film festival in st. petersburg explaining "as a gay man, i must decline." miller not only came out in the letter to a festival organizer but wrote he is "deeply troubled over the treatment of gay men and women by the russian government. i cannot in good conscience participate in a celebratory occasion hosted by a country where people like myself are
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being systemically denied their basic right to live and love openly." if there's one person to talk about to about what it's like to be openly gay in russia, my next guest is that person. masha gessen, an out gay woman, mother of three. the country's first effort to fight these anti-gay laws. she's author of "the man without a face: the unlikely rise of vladimir putin." >> good to be here. >> can you set the context for us about what has changed in the last year or so? my assumption is that being gay in russia before these laws was not necessarily an easy experience. has something really changed? have things gotten worse? is it the way russia is? >> things have gotten significantly worse. russia was never a paradise. same-sex marriage was not on the agenda. russia was moving in right direction. i've been back in russia for 20
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year and been out the entire time. i spent probably the first decade being the only publicly out person in the whole country. then gradually it just became normalized, as you would expect it would be. >> so the trajectory was moving in the direction of progress. >> absolutely. and there were gay bars, there were gay organizations, there are gay publications, gay websites in the major cities. things were worst in the countryside. russia was behind the west in many ways but was not moving backwards. what's changed is for the last year and a half, it's been moving backwards and moving back not only toward extreme homophobia, but the hate campaign has caused extreme violence. >> you, right now, are my understanding, considering leaving. you're leaving russia. you have three children. >> right. >> why are you leaving?
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what are you scared of? >> head of the committee of the family of the russian parliament, moving force behind the laws on the federal level, has said the committee plans to introduce legislation that will create a mechanism for removing children from same-sex families. so i don't think it's a good idea for me to stick around until that mechanism is created. >> they're going to come take your kids. >> my family will be the first targeted. yes. >> where are you moving? >> new york. >> we're very happy to have you here. even though the circumstances are horrible. we've talked to a number of activists. american lgbt activists working in a variety of ways to pressure the russian government on these issues. one of them is a dump russian vodika. what is your feeling about the effectiveness of that? do you and other lgbt activists inside russia support these
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efforts? >> some people don't, but my sense is that most lgbt activists and most lgbt people do, but it's easiest for me to talk for myself -- >> please. >> -- and explain why i support these efforts, and i support all of these efforts. the reason i support all of them is because the reason that russia has done as much as fast as hatefully and violently is it felt like nobody was watching. the first trial balloons of this legislation on the regional level were floated a long time ago. for the last year, this hate campaign on television has been ongoing. it's been there on almost a daily basis and the world did not pay attention. so russia figured it was the one minority that it would use as a scapegoat. that putin could use to mobilize his constituency in a national ist xenophobic fervor and get away with it. and the fact it's not getting away with it now, as you said earlier, russia's inching toward
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a pariah status, that's exactly right. that's a big surprise to them and it's making them squirm. we need to keep the heat on. >> the next question is, is this working? do you think this is making them reconsider? are they starting to get worried what this means for russia on the national stage? >> i think so. what we've seen with the olympics is a perfect example. they've really squirmed because they stepped into a trap they set for themselves. on the one hand, putin said to his own public, we're going to stand up to the depraved west, protect our cultural values. we're not going to let those homosexuals who are a sign of the apocalypse as the patriarch told us, we're not going to let them enter our country. on the other hand, the olympics is his personal project. he personally went to lob by the committee when russia was chosen to hold the olympics. we wanted to be back in office as president to host the olympics. he wants it to go off without a hitch.
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when the ioc started asking for assurances that gay and lesbian athletes were going to be safe, they really started squirming. the letter you cited earlier is a perfect example. they're trying to talk out of both sides of their mouths. it took them more than a week to come up with the response. it's unconvincing. basically what they're saying is the laws are equally discriminatory against everybody. but, yeah, as long as the pressure is on, it's not going to make them reconsider those laws, but it will possibly make them dial back the campaign of hate and it can prevent the passage of further laws including the law on removing children from same-sex families. >> you talked about the campaign of hate on tv. and just what does that look like? >> what it looks like is, for example, the deputy head of kremlin propaganda machine coming on television and saying banning gay propaganda is not enough. we need to ban gay man from being donors of blood and sperm, and should they get into car accidents, i'm quoting now, we
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need to bury their hearts underground or burn them for they're unsuitable for the aiding of anyone's life. this is very classic sort of dehumanizing war rhetoric. >> yes. >> it's showing the enemy is less than human, and on the other hand the enemy is extremely dangerous. >> we played clips of somewhat notorious fascist big mohawk thug who goes around luring gay men into interactions and then humiliating them and putting videos on youtube. some of the most upsetting stuff i've seen. it looks like you're staring into the very darkest heart of fascism. very core deepest worst kind of stuff that people and governments do when they hate together. >> i think that's absolutely right, and the thing to keep in mind about is that it's instigated by the kremlin. >> journalist masha gessen. thank you so much. >> thank you. >> appreciate it. we'll be right back with #click3. these digestive issues... with three strains of good bacteria. [ phillips' lady ] live the regular life. phillips'. [ phillips' lady ] live the regular life. trust your instincts to make the call.
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coming up, in their haste to stoke racial resentment, fox news gets a big detail wrong. the detail having to do with race. and later, is is all this coverage of the nsa an outgrowth of white privilege? our guests will debate whether or not liberals are favoring certain rights for certain people over others. first i want to share the three awesomest things on internet today. beginning with video that is awesome in the sense that it is just absolutely crazy. bayou corn, louisiana, is the site of what "mother jones" calls the biggest ongoing industrial disasters in the united states you haven't heard of. state is suing a mining company called texas brine for allegedly causing a massive underground
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sinkhole surely, slowly swallowing the town. it is growing. the entire town of 340 people have been forced to evacuate. unfortunately, the trees surrounding the sinkhole don't have that option. check that out. the assumption parish emergency response team released this video wednesday. an entire grove of trees getting sucked down, 750 feet deep. notice they don't fall over. they get sucked down into the massive hole below. amazing and terrifying. the second awesomest thing on the internet today, speaking of underground calf vernes, i add happen opportunity last week to take a field trip 180 feet below the streets of new york city to tour the construction project to build a new subway line up 2nd avenue in manhattan. this is what it looked like down there. incredible feat of human engineering and ingenuity and in awe of the men and women working so hard every day on this project. i'm thankful to have these photographs taken by my executive producer.
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that's the awesome part of this. dennis, as hi father would use to say, would lose his head if it wasn't screwed on tight. after we came back up and were walking the blocks to the office, dennis dropped the memory card full of these photos on it, lost on the street, gone forever. an envelope showed up at a connecticut church, where his son, jack, received his first communion. this photo, on the memory card, a man who picked up the card in new york city, identified jack's name and name of the church and put the card in an envelope and sent it all the way to connecticut. tonight we have our pictures but an acute reminder of how kind and empathetic and gracious people can be and are every single day. thank you, alfredo. third awesomest thing on the internet today, demonstration and activism from a guy in a field in new zealand with a flock of sheep. this is what sheepocracy looks like. >> what do you want? when do you want it?
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how do you want it? who's your daddy? >> all right. all right. now it's getting a little creepy. find all the links for tonight's #click3 on our website, we'll be right back. [ male announcer ] if you had a dollar, for every dollar car insurance companies say they'll save you by switching, you'd have like, a ton of dollars. but how're they saving you those dollars? a lot of companies might answer "um" or "no comment."
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one of the central articles of faith in modern right wing mythology is that white people are the true vicks of racial prejudice and animus in america. it takes quite a bit of reality avoidance to construct and maintain this myth, as any cursory glance of data on incarceration or income and unemployment can inform you. fox & company have been remarkably effective in getting people to believe this. trotting out this recent survey from rasmussen, 33% of respondents think most blacks are racist, 15% say most whites are racist. in the wake of george zimmerman's acquittal and national conversation on race
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profiling, fox has been working overtime, to say, look, white people are the victims of black people. it is, let's not be -- it is a grossly cynical undertaking. but i suppose it's their job. first, o'reilly and others showed this video on loop of three boys beating another boy. the attempt to inflate that incident into some kind of racial symbol more or less failed. and so fox started to look around for another story. and when the truly horrific details emerged of the brutal murder of chris lane, they got aid head of themselves. an australian transfer student at east central university in oklahoma apparently murdered in cold blood by three teenage boys who reportedly committed the crime out of boredom. it's a horrible, upsetting,
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enraging story. nearly immediately fox rushed to turn this into a story of racial hate and white victimhood. >> allen west has tweeted this. "we were bored and decided to kill somebody." three black teens shoot white jogger. who will president of the united states identify with this time?" excellent point. i wonder when celebrities are going to put on, i am chris lane t-shirts? >> ed henry asked about the three black suspects at a white house press briefing. >> do you have any reaction to the christopher lane case? >> i'm not familiar with that, actually. >> in oklahoma, this 22-year-old or 23-year-old australian, baseball player, came from australia, was targeted apparently by three african-american young men. >> except they weren't three african-american men. one is black, one is half black, half white.
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the other is white. an official at the stevens county district attorneys office told msnbc. we learned the three assailants after the cold-blooded murder went out looking for their next victim, according to this man, their son, a black teenager in the school threatened by the boys and called his dad panicked about it. of course, mistakes happen in reporting stories all the time. this is one of those revealing mistakes that shows how much fox & company want to use this horrible murder as a means of pushing a certain story line. the whole thing was so reverse engineered and overdetermined they couldn't bother to wait and check the facts. the irony here is that it is the right constantly accusing us on the left of making everything about race, turning every action and event in america into a product of the grievance industry, whatever that means. in 2009, fbi data shows 209 black people were killed by white people in instances where we know the race of both the victim and offender. it's not like every one of the
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violent crimes is a major story in the progressive media or any of them so far as i can recall. that's because we're not sitting here engaged in the act of combing through death notices, accusations that will rile up our voters. that's precisely the ghastly undertaking at fox news every single day. we'll be right back. in the beginning it started out as a police officer was stopping me, asking me a series of questions. about who to hire without going to angie's list first. with angie's list, i know who to call, and i know the results will be fantastic! find out why more than two million members count on angie's list. angie's list -- reviews you can trust. no-charge scheduled maintenance. check. and here's the kicker... 0% apr for 60 months. and who got it? this guy. and who got it? this guy. and who got it?
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in the beginning it started out as a police officer was stopping me, asking me a series of questions. searched my pockets. i would let them. unaware of this is not supposed to be happening, violating your civil rights. it's like total submissiveness to make them feel as though i'm not putting up a fuss. as i grew older, that's just not me. it's my friends, my family. hundreds of thousands of people who look like me. it became a lot more frightful to me. >> there is a big surprise victory this afternoon in the battle against stop and frisk. as a new york city council voted to uphold two pieces of legislation collectively called the community safety act in which overrides mayor bloomberg's vetoes of both measures. the first bill would set up an independent inspector general to investigate and monitor the nypd.
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the second measure will expand the right to sue the nypd over racial profiling. the movement against stop and frisk only continues to grow. it's essentially taken over the entire new york city's mayoral race and just last week a federal just declared the policy unconstitutional and wrote in her opinion that "one way to prove the city has a custom of conducting unconstitutional stops and frisks is to show that it acted with deliberate indifference to constitutional depravations. the evidence at trial revealed significant evidence that the nypd acted with deliberate indifference." stop and frisk is one of the two biggest issues in the news right now about the relationship of how government relates to its citizens and their privacy. the other one, of course, the ongoing development and story of the nsa's massive sprawling spy operation. with revelations just about every day that it's collecting more and more and more information. and an interesting and provocative new piece, msnbc
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contributor james peterson takes to task those focusing on the nsa story while for the most part ignoring the stop and frisk story by ask "how can we have a discussion about civil liberties and security and privacy and safety without connecting it to the physical surveillance to which black and brown americans have been historically subject?" joining me now is msnbc contributor james peterson, director of africana studies at lehigh university. david sirota, columnist for just joined as well. james, what caused you to write the piece? >> well, i mean, i think a few things caused me to write it. one, wanted to sort of put on the table the fact that i've had some of these experiences, myself, and try to give a broader sense of what might be the way forward for us to connect the dots across some of these very, very important conversations. i'm following folk talking about stop and frisk and following folk talking about the nsa. seen very, very little of the intersection of these very, very important issues. i think when you talk about the surveillance state, we've got to connect the dots here.
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i felt very, very strongly we needed another voice to sort of try to do some of those things. i'm not a legal expert and not an expert on surveillance studies, but i do a little bit of news and news media. what i was finding we weren't connecting those dots and felt there's an important conversation to have in a holistic way in the ways in which physical surveillance has been around for quite some time and i think the digital surveillance we're thinking about now is an outgrowth of that. the physical surveillance to me seems to be more or less invisible in terms of the public media and national scene when we talk about some of these issues. >> i thought it was a great piece for this reason. i thought you got at the heart of what shows up in my social media feed any time we talk about particularly the nsa issues, but either of the issues which is a bifurcated word. in the worst way, i want to be careful about how i say this, a coding of each racially. nsa is a white person issue and stop and frisk is a black person issue. i see this all the time in the way people respond to the stories. david, i'm interested in how you
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responded to james' piece. >> look, i share the concern of somebody who's written a lot about and talked a lot about on radio here in colorado, a lot about police brutality and the disproportionate use of police power against people of color. i think -- i have a similar concern. my concern is more with, although not exclusively with, but more with the media. you look at people, let's say people breaking these stories about nsa and edward snowden. glenn greenwald. this is somebody writing about stop and frisk. wrote a whole book in part about stop and frisk and racial profiling. what i'm concerned about is people who are concerned about both sets of issues, what we see in the national media is only the nsa and privacy and digital surveillance issues tend to get the kinds of headlines -- >> that's interesting. >> -- that stop and frisk and physical surveillance get. and i think that's a problem and i think, perhaps, the calculation there among the
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national media is because the nsa surveillance affects everybody and because stop and frisk only affects, or is disproportionately targeted at color -- >> exactly. >> -- that the national media should only cover nsa story and not stop and frisk. >> chris, listen -- >> please. >> i want to be honest here, also. i feel like if we work together, we can get more accomplished. so if we can find a space or an issue where we can cut across some of these racial lines and class lines and understand the ways in which oppression in this case, surveillance, whether physical or digital, works together, and we have to actually work together against the state, against the government, to make them honest and make sure we sort of resolve some of these issues. generally speaking, chris, i'm much more interested in working together in a consensus than in some of the ways in which we debate and discuss politics these days. >> i agree. so here's my question for you. because i also feel that one of the differences between these two issues is that what i was
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saying before, these issues get coated racially. i see a lot of people respond to me when i cover the nsa, concern about the nsa and whatever it is doing is an outgrowth of privilege, yourself. if you're trying to make sure your 16-year-old son isn't jacked up by cops every day, you're not that worried about whatever screen of data that is happening in some remote -- there's something to that, but then at the same time it also feels like this is a way of marginalizing a story about what the government can do that really is connected in a very direct way to what the government's doing up and down from the federal down to the local level. >> sure. i'm trying to push back against that marginalization. >> go ahead, james. >> trying to push back against that marginalization. it's difficult to do that because what you're saying is the real -- it's the real experiences of a lot of folk obviously in new york city, but pennsylvania also has stop and frisk. i think the zimmerman trial is important here as well. when you see vigilanteism on the rise, when you see these vigilante murders and see the ways in which stop and frisk and stand your ground work hand in
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hand, proliferation of guns, things sort of become very, very immediate for black and brown folk. that's where some of the frustration lies. >> david? >> two quick points. i mean, one of the things i took also away from the article was that we should also be asking questions of policymakers because you do have a number of policymakers, for instance, in congress, who've raised real questions about nsa surveillance, who haven't raised questions about stop and frisk, especially on the republican side. a lot of tea party republicans running around saying they care about surveillance but don't say things when it comes to stop and frisk. one other point. i wrote an article after the trayvon martin verdict and brought all the issues together. some people said that's really great. other people said it was marginalizing physical surveillance and physical preemptive violence against people of color by bringing it together. i'm really glad to see this kind
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of discussion happening. i completely agree. these issues need to be seen as a part of one entire system. >> the thing, of course, that unites them, i think, is the 4th amendment of the united states. i want to bring in a lawyer who works with the 4th amendment of the united states constitution, right after this break. play close. good and close. discover the new way to help keep teeth clean and breath fresh. new beneful healthy smile food and snacks. he'll love the crunch of the healthy smile kibbles. you'll love how they help clean. with soft, meaty centers, and teeth cleaning texture healthy smile snacks help keep a shine on his smile. it's dental that tastes so good.
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new beneful healthy smile food and snacks. new york city's controversial stop and frisk program ruled unconstitutional a little over a week ago for violating the rights of african-americans and latinos is expanding. our own reports that detroit of all places is bringing in the architects of new york city's program to help build theirs. detroit, where african-americans make up about 83% of the city's population. you can check out the article at our website, we'll be right back. [ male announcer ] imagine this cute blob is metamucil. and this park is the inside of your body. see, the special psyllium fiber in metamucil actually gels. and that gelling helps to lower some cholesterol. metamucil. 3 amazing benefits in 1 super fiber.
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talking about civil liberties and the question raised by programs like stop and frisk and the nsa surveillance. with me, msnbc contributor james peterson, david sirota. and joining the conversation, vince. vince, i want to read you a tweet that i think in some ways is representative of some of the feedback i've gotten. pick random black, brown new yorkers, poll them on what's closer to being j. edgar hooverized. you are someone who works in both spheres.
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you guys sued new york on this lawsuit over stop and frisk and are also suing the federal government over surveillance. do you see these with each other? to you see them connected? >> they're not in tension with each other legally at all. in fact, one way to think about the broad scope here is to look at what the government had been doing since 9/11. they take the largest number of people and try to do preventative policing. preventing spying. preventing militarization. massive groups of people. they don't look at what the human costs are. they're essentially trying to get the risk factor of bad things happening to zero through the policies. >> if that is the case, isn't that what they should be doing after 9/11, the old mentality is you wait for a crime to be committed, you prosecute it and goes in the national security sphere and policing sphere and new mentality that's brought crime down and prevented another
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big attack like 9/11, you stop them from happening in first place. >> you can't do that, because if you try to do that you're doing that on backs of the communities you're spying on. three examples, number one, the stop and frisk case. obviously black and brown new yorkers, stopping massive numbers of people who are innocent with virtually 0% success rate. >> massive majority of whom have no guns, no weapons. >> nothing. the second example are muslim americans. the new york city police department spy on -- >> students on rafting trips, for example. >> millions of dollars in this. zero results. what they're saying in both of those situations is the reason why we're doing this is because we're keeping you safe. if you stop us from doing this, you will be left safe. essentially putting the 4th amendment against people's feelings of personal safety. last thing i'll say is in terms of the racial dynamics, there is this adage or old sense that civil liberties are for white people and civil rights for black people. they begin to come together when we look at the massive amount of
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work the government is doing against all of our communities and there are opportunities for folks to come together. >> david, how do you put guts on the nsa story when even i come in here and i think about it, where it just seem remote. i think to myself, i guess there's a database somewhere that might have some thing i have, i don't know. what's that going to do to my life at the end of the day? >> well, look, i think that's a fair question. i think that's where imaginations can run wild. look, i wrote a piece today for nsfwcorp about how we have to wonder whether members of congress have to fear what the n nsa have on them. is there a j. edgar hooverish going on? the other thing you think about, look, you may be comfortable with the nsa surveilling america under a president you like, but are you going to be comfortable with it under a president or politician that you don't like?
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what about when your mayor gets access to this or your police department gets access to this? these are the kinds of questions that are legitimate. >> james, i think we're going to see that. we see that in different jurisdictions where people have very different relationships necessarily to who the executive is. do you think we'll see a change if and when president obama were to leave office? >> we might, but i think at the core here is that there's no data that suggests that stop and frisk reduces crime. there's other things, community policing, different demographic patterns or different things that factor into that. that's the same thing about the nsa and war on terror. if we want to prosecute the war on terror, we have to change foreign policy and stop making this clumsy violent interventions we make around the world. there's long form harder work that has to be done to addresses issues. >> vince warren, executive director of the center for constitutional rights. david sirota at msnbc contributor james peterson. thank you very much. that "all in" for this eveni


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